1 00:00:22,689 --> 00:00:09,090 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:29,060 --> 00:00:25,519 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:29,070 episode number 368 for the 8th of 4 00:00:35,020 --> 00:00:32,129 November 2015 Richard Saunders here with 5 00:00:39,740 --> 00:00:35,030 you from Melbourne Melbourne Australia 6 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:39,750 beautiful sunny rainy cold hot wintery 7 00:00:44,390 --> 00:00:42,030 summary and all the rest of it Melbourne 8 00:00:46,490 --> 00:00:44,400 I'm down here for a few days at the 9 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:46,500 invitation of my good friend dr. Steve 10 00:00:51,530 --> 00:00:49,290 Roberts who's a longtime member of the 11 00:00:55,810 --> 00:00:51,540 skeptics and the Australian skeptic sell 12 00:00:59,270 --> 00:00:55,820 one of them UFO expert I brought with me 13 00:01:02,209 --> 00:00:59,280 60 kilos worth of UFO books for Steve 14 00:01:03,410 --> 00:01:02,219 Roberts and at the end of the show right 15 00:01:04,759 --> 00:01:03,420 at the end of the show we're going to be 16 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:04,769 looking at some of these books and 17 00:01:11,060 --> 00:01:08,970 discussing UFOs should be interesting 18 00:01:12,590 --> 00:01:11,070 but before we do that before we do that 19 00:01:15,410 --> 00:01:12,600 we're going to kick off this week show 20 00:01:16,669 --> 00:01:15,420 the raw skeptic report with Heidi 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:16,679 Robertson from the Northern Rivers 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:20,130 vaccination supporters Heidi and some 23 00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:22,050 other people we know were asked to 24 00:01:28,389 --> 00:01:23,550 appear in front of a Senate committee 25 00:01:31,370 --> 00:01:28,399 last week looking at no jab no pay 26 00:01:34,969 --> 00:01:31,380 legislation here in Australia heidi's 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:34,979 going to report on her presentation and 28 00:01:39,380 --> 00:01:36,690 you'll hear a presentation to the senate 29 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:39,390 committee also we're going to be hearing 30 00:01:46,699 --> 00:01:43,310 a little bit of the cacophony hoo-ha 31 00:01:49,279 --> 00:01:46,709 general miss be anything of the 32 00:01:52,969 --> 00:01:49,289 anti-vaccination crowd of the the 33 00:01:55,999 --> 00:01:52,979 hearing and it really drives home that a 34 00:01:59,229 --> 00:01:56,009 lot of these people are so wrapped up 35 00:02:02,930 --> 00:01:59,239 wound up in conspiracy theory and 36 00:02:06,260 --> 00:02:02,940 general distrust of the medical 37 00:02:08,210 --> 00:02:06,270 fraternity and the government it really 38 00:02:11,479 --> 00:02:08,220 comes across I'll play a little snippet 39 00:02:14,559 --> 00:02:11,489 of their their antics they're carrying 40 00:02:18,830 --> 00:02:14,569 on most undignified most unprofessional 41 00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:18,840 but it's their true colors and as 42 00:02:24,170 --> 00:02:22,560 opposed to their carry-on Heidi and 43 00:02:27,199 --> 00:02:24,180 people from friends and science and 44 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:27,209 medicine and stop the avian also gave 45 00:02:32,970 --> 00:02:30,030 presentations would calm were collected 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:32,980 they had facts they were 47 00:02:38,070 --> 00:02:36,010 professional what a difference anyway 48 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:38,080 you'll get a taste of all that coming up 49 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:40,090 with a raw skeptic report with Heidi 50 00:02:43,740 --> 00:02:41,610 Robertson at the top of the show 51 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:43,750 following that is a week in science from 52 00:02:49,940 --> 00:02:45,370 our friends at the Royal Institution of 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:49,950 Australia www RI aus dog data you a find 54 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:53,290 find scientific institution and they do 55 00:02:59,430 --> 00:02:56,530 good outreach to then it's Maynard 56 00:03:01,589 --> 00:02:59,440 spooky action Maynard with some Vox pops 57 00:03:03,479 --> 00:03:01,599 at the recent Australian skeptics 58 00:03:05,460 --> 00:03:03,489 national convention in Brisbane thank 59 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:05,470 you to those are wonderful people in 60 00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:07,170 Brisbane who put that all together 61 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:10,870 summer interviews here and there and the 62 00:03:16,170 --> 00:03:13,810 feature interview this week is with dr. 63 00:03:19,710 --> 00:03:16,180 Eugenie Scott from California who flew 64 00:03:22,289 --> 00:03:19,720 out for the convention now GD Scott has 65 00:03:24,589 --> 00:03:22,299 retired but she certainly has a lot to 66 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:24,599 say about the current state of the 67 00:03:29,180 --> 00:03:27,609 creationism and evolution situation in 68 00:03:33,180 --> 00:03:29,190 the United States which is an ongoing 69 00:03:36,180 --> 00:03:33,190 concern all that coming up on this 70 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:36,190 week's episode of the skeptic zone but 71 00:03:42,449 --> 00:03:39,010 now it's time for me to open up the door 72 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:42,459 walk down the hall look in the fridge 73 00:03:48,180 --> 00:03:44,410 and see if there isn't some leftover 74 00:03:50,819 --> 00:03:48,190 cheesecake from a party that dr. Steve 75 00:03:53,009 --> 00:03:50,829 had the other night together with his 76 00:03:54,930 --> 00:03:53,019 wife Barbara they were celebrating the 77 00:03:59,009 --> 00:03:54,940 fact that Steve has built a new shed in 78 00:04:00,539 --> 00:03:59,019 his backyard hmm any excuse eh well I'm 79 00:04:03,479 --> 00:04:00,549 sure there's a bit of cheese cake left 80 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:03,489 over if I'm lucky well I'm doing that I 81 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:29,890 it's the raw skeptic report with Heidi 82 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:39,410 Robertson hi everyone it's Heidi 83 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:40,970 Robertson coming to you from the 84 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:44,330 northern rivers of New South Wales last 85 00:04:48,219 --> 00:04:46,310 Monday the second of November was a big 86 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:48,229 day for the Northern Rivers vaccination 87 00:04:52,270 --> 00:04:50,810 supporters we were asked by a Senate 88 00:04:54,909 --> 00:04:52,280 committee to come and give a statement 89 00:04:57,670 --> 00:04:54,919 regarding our views on the proposed no 90 00:04:59,680 --> 00:04:57,680 jab nope a legislation that they are 91 00:05:02,320 --> 00:04:59,690 currently looking at passing here in 92 00:05:04,090 --> 00:05:02,330 Australia if you are unaware of this 93 00:05:06,550 --> 00:05:04,100 bill it is looking at removing 94 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:06,560 conscientious and religious exemptions 95 00:05:12,219 --> 00:05:09,650 to vaccination leaving only medical 96 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:12,229 exemptions religious exemptions are 97 00:05:16,210 --> 00:05:14,090 being removed as there are no mainstream 98 00:05:19,180 --> 00:05:16,220 religions in Australia that oppose 99 00:05:21,250 --> 00:05:19,190 vaccination currently in order to 100 00:05:23,770 --> 00:05:21,260 receive certain government subsidies for 101 00:05:26,190 --> 00:05:23,780 sending children to childcare a parent 102 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:26,200 has to have a form signed by adopter 103 00:05:32,529 --> 00:05:29,210 indicating philosophical religious or 104 00:05:34,870 --> 00:05:32,539 medical exemptions if those options are 105 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:34,880 now removed apart from the medical one 106 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:37,610 those families will miss out on certain 107 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:40,490 payments the Northern Rivers vaccination 108 00:05:44,980 --> 00:05:42,410 supporters along with hundreds of others 109 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:44,990 put in a submission to the Senate about 110 00:05:49,390 --> 00:05:47,570 this bill and we were very surprised 111 00:05:51,370 --> 00:05:49,400 when we received an invitation to 112 00:05:53,650 --> 00:05:51,380 Brisbane for the hearing and an 113 00:05:56,350 --> 00:05:53,660 opportunity to speak further about it in 114 00:06:00,100 --> 00:05:56,360 front of the Senate community affairs 115 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:00,110 legislation committee also invited to 116 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:02,930 speak was the stop the avn group and 117 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:05,330 their representatives rang in via 118 00:06:10,260 --> 00:06:07,910 telephone they're excellent testimony 119 00:06:13,689 --> 00:06:10,270 was given by dr. John Cunningham 120 00:06:16,990 --> 00:06:13,699 epidemiologist dr. Dave Hawks virologist 121 00:06:19,930 --> 00:06:17,000 and dr. Patrick Stokes senior lecturer 122 00:06:22,209 --> 00:06:19,940 in philosophy other organizations 123 00:06:25,270 --> 00:06:22,219 represented on the day included the 124 00:06:27,490 --> 00:06:25,280 Australian Medical Association the Royal 125 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:27,500 Australasian College of Physicians 126 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:30,110 child care alliance Australia the 127 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:32,510 Parenthood inspired family day care 128 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:35,450 service the Public Health Association of 129 00:06:39,940 --> 00:06:37,970 Australia associate professor Julie 130 00:06:43,510 --> 00:06:39,950 leask the Department of Social Services 131 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:43,520 and the Department of Health members of 132 00:06:47,650 --> 00:06:45,590 the public were also invited to speak in 133 00:06:51,730 --> 00:06:47,660 total for the day there were 20 of them 134 00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:51,740 at two minutes each for us it was 135 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:53,480 slightly off-putting having the 136 00:06:59,140 --> 00:06:55,970 Australian vaccination skeptic networks 137 00:07:02,020 --> 00:06:59,150 former presidents Merrill dory and greg 138 00:07:05,140 --> 00:07:02,030 BTW in attendance who had also been 139 00:07:07,290 --> 00:07:05,150 invited to speak despite the H Triple C 140 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:07,300 warning out against that particular 141 00:07:13,870 --> 00:07:10,880 organization brett Smith naturopath and 142 00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:13,880 Debbie Kemp child care operator and both 143 00:07:20,710 --> 00:07:16,640 staunch anti-vaccination advocates also 144 00:07:22,930 --> 00:07:20,720 spoke just before US Senator Richard D 145 00:07:25,450 --> 00:07:22,940 natale was on the committee and ran in 146 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:25,460 to ask a few questions and the hearing 147 00:07:30,340 --> 00:07:27,610 descended into a cacophony of 148 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:30,350 anti-vaccination sentiment from members 149 00:07:35,650 --> 00:07:33,320 of the gallery and those on the panel it 150 00:07:37,930 --> 00:07:35,660 was frankly embarrassing to witness and 151 00:07:41,130 --> 00:07:37,940 almost certainly did not do anything 152 00:07:43,540 --> 00:07:41,140 positive for the anti-vaccination cause 153 00:07:45,850 --> 00:07:43,550 particularly when brett Smith basically 154 00:07:49,180 --> 00:07:45,860 accused senators of being Rupert 155 00:07:53,290 --> 00:07:49,190 Murdoch's shills here's an example of 156 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:53,300 how they carried on so I'm hoping that 157 00:07:56,650 --> 00:07:55,130 we can actually concentrate on the 158 00:07:58,630 --> 00:07:56,660 issues here and not worry about what 159 00:08:01,510 --> 00:07:58,640 Rupert Murdoch and news limited want you 160 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:01,520 to so today at mrs. miss Sandra and 161 00:08:10,090 --> 00:08:07,510 Sally so unmannerly with no questions 162 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:10,100 given that the hearing today hearing 163 00:08:15,010 --> 00:08:11,360 isn't actually about the effectiveness 164 00:08:18,219 --> 00:08:15,020 of back saying on more and more 165 00:08:22,930 --> 00:08:18,229 interested in the credibility of the 166 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:22,940 witnesses here today now the in terms of 167 00:08:30,190 --> 00:08:26,870 the evidence provided by the Australian 168 00:08:32,110 --> 00:08:30,200 vaccination skeptics network there was a 169 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:32,120 ruling made by the health complaints 170 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:34,010 commission in New South Wales that the 171 00:08:37,130 --> 00:08:35,010 information 172 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:37,140 they provide on vaccinations years and i 173 00:08:42,469 --> 00:08:40,050 quote misleading to the average reader 174 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:42,479 because it's either incorrect in 175 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:44,910 accurately represented or because it's 176 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:46,530 been taken out of context that was a 177 00:08:52,490 --> 00:08:48,810 ruling or health complaints commission 178 00:08:55,910 --> 00:08:52,500 in New South Wales what has what is the 179 00:08:57,740 --> 00:08:55,920 organization done to correct the way in 180 00:09:00,890 --> 00:08:57,750 which they present that information how 181 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:00,900 is that different today compared with 182 00:09:05,620 --> 00:09:02,610 the manner in which they've presented 183 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:05,630 information on this issue in the past 184 00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:08,400 the ABN there's a lot of groups here 185 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:10,860 that aren't represented by the avian and 186 00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:12,510 you're wasting a lot of our time I know 187 00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:14,430 mr. Murdock wants you to ask these 188 00:09:24,410 --> 00:09:22,950 questions a question it's going to be 189 00:09:27,650 --> 00:09:24,420 virtually impossible of people speak 190 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:27,660 over one another now I can't I can't 191 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:29,610 order send them tell you what questions 192 00:09:34,220 --> 00:09:31,890 to ask isn't time to ask these questions 193 00:09:35,930 --> 00:09:34,230 and you can choose to answer them in 194 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:35,940 whatever way you like we are almost out 195 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:38,580 of time and it is unhelpful so that so 196 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:40,080 there was a question I missed most of it 197 00:09:49,610 --> 00:09:48,450 but if okay but they cannot know 198 00:09:50,990 --> 00:09:49,620 instruct i'm not going to instruct 199 00:09:52,550 --> 00:09:51,000 senators how to ask their questions 200 00:09:54,740 --> 00:09:52,560 they're also laughs they ask their 201 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:54,750 questions we are virtually out of times 202 00:10:00,080 --> 00:09:56,970 on would like to address the question 203 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:00,090 the Senators how is more questions we 204 00:10:04,580 --> 00:10:03,090 don't know it sounds like that so it 205 00:10:06,530 --> 00:10:04,590 sounds like they will sorry sorry mrs. 206 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:06,540 camp with your choice hold the time 207 00:10:17,730 --> 00:10:15,570 order order order and now here is a 208 00:10:19,410 --> 00:10:17,740 recording of our statement the 209 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:19,420 transcript can be found on our website 210 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:27,850 at WWF is a info oh yes mrs. Robertson 211 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:30,210 thank you for inviting us here today 212 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:32,290 we're here representing the Northern 213 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:34,090 Rivers vaccination supporters we're an 214 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:37,210 unfunded community advocacy group formed 215 00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:40,090 in 2013 as a result of concerns that we 216 00:10:44,490 --> 00:10:41,680 live in the region with Australia's 217 00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:44,500 lowest vaccination rates just under half 218 00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:46,720 of children aged 5 are fully vaccinated 219 00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:49,870 in mulund Bimby so the national average 220 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:52,600 of over ninety percent vaccination 221 00:10:58,140 --> 00:10:54,400 coverage is pretty much irrelevant in 222 00:10:59,820 --> 00:10:58,150 pockets like ours we are in support of 223 00:11:01,860 --> 00:10:59,830 the proposed legislation for a number of 224 00:11:03,210 --> 00:11:01,870 reasons but we also have a couple of 225 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:03,220 concerns about it that would like to 226 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:06,340 share vaccinations don't only protect 227 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:08,050 individuals they also protect 228 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:10,930 communities and ricci vaccinating as a 229 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:13,390 social responsibility it protects 230 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:14,980 children and other members of society 231 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:17,050 who are vulnerable to infectious disease 232 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:18,520 such as babies too young to be 233 00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:21,490 vaccinated the elderly people with 234 00:11:25,740 --> 00:11:23,380 legitimate medical exemptions who cannot 235 00:11:28,860 --> 00:11:25,750 be vaccinated and immune suppressed 236 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:28,870 people such as cancer patients child 237 00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:30,400 care facilities are where children are 238 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:32,620 in close proximity with each other for 239 00:11:38,070 --> 00:11:35,470 extended periods of time putting them at 240 00:11:39,870 --> 00:11:38,080 greater risk of contagious disease this 241 00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:39,880 is even more concerning if a number of 242 00:11:44,190 --> 00:11:42,430 children there are not vaccinated as the 243 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:44,200 disease's potentially being shared can 244 00:11:49,050 --> 00:11:47,050 be very dangerous we see it is 245 00:11:50,910 --> 00:11:49,060 particularly fitting then that the 246 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:50,920 proposed legislation focuses on 247 00:11:54,870 --> 00:11:52,750 withholding a government subsidy that 248 00:11:56,970 --> 00:11:54,880 helps parents of unvaccinated children 249 00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:56,980 send their kids to attend childcare 250 00:12:01,980 --> 00:11:59,920 facilities we have heard one of the main 251 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:01,990 concerns is that parents choices are 252 00:12:06,390 --> 00:12:03,490 being taken away from them if this 253 00:12:08,250 --> 00:12:06,400 legislation is passed our view is that 254 00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,260 parents do in fact still have a choice 255 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:10,480 but that choice not to vaccinate will 256 00:12:14,550 --> 00:12:12,850 now come with a consequence it is the 257 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:14,560 parents choosing not to vaccinate their 258 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:17,050 children not the legislation that will 259 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:18,730 be disadvantaging their children and in 260 00:12:21,870 --> 00:12:19,030 dane 261 00:12:25,770 --> 00:12:21,880 the community is the legislation 262 00:12:27,420 --> 00:12:25,780 coercive yes but not unjustly so in our 263 00:12:29,310 --> 00:12:27,430 region our group has had an impact on 264 00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:29,320 some members of the community but 265 00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:31,600 vaccination rates remain dangerously low 266 00:12:36,420 --> 00:12:33,820 and we need a stronger incentive for 267 00:12:38,850 --> 00:12:36,430 people to vaccinate we believe that both 268 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:38,860 a carrot and a stick approach are needed 269 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:40,480 we think that there needs to be more 270 00:12:45,270 --> 00:12:42,790 targeted educational campaigns and 271 00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:45,280 awareness raised and any access issues 272 00:12:49,260 --> 00:12:47,860 addressed but we also need consequences 273 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:49,270 for those who make choices that put 274 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:52,210 others at risk this is a public health 275 00:12:57,150 --> 00:12:54,130 issue there are consequences for 276 00:12:58,830 --> 00:12:57,160 speeding and for drink driving surely 277 00:13:00,480 --> 00:12:58,840 there should also be consequences if 278 00:13:03,230 --> 00:13:00,490 your actions leave the vulnerable at 279 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:03,240 risk of preventable infectious disease 280 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:06,550 the impact of pockets of low vaccination 281 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:09,010 rates on the incidence of disease must 282 00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:11,290 be considered as babies and other 283 00:13:14,970 --> 00:13:12,760 vulnerable people are going to continue 284 00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:14,980 to get sick and die if something is not 285 00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:18,550 done as you may be aware Malachi 286 00:13:25,620 --> 00:13:22,830 Cockroft kayla smith Dana McCaffrey and 287 00:13:27,570 --> 00:13:25,630 Riley Hughes all passed away from 288 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:27,580 whooping cough all too young to be 289 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:29,890 vaccinated and all from areas with 290 00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:32,530 dangerously low vaccination rates there 291 00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:34,840 was no community immunity to shield them 292 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:38,500 as in as another example one of the 293 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:39,970 members of our group has a little girl 294 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:41,530 who contracted whooping cough and a 295 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:43,510 daycare center after an unvaccinated 296 00:13:47,910 --> 00:13:46,510 child attended with whooping cough this 297 00:13:50,190 --> 00:13:47,920 little girl now suffers from a condition 298 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:50,200 called bronchiectasis with leaves which 299 00:13:54,150 --> 00:13:52,750 leaves her with lifelong lung damage she 300 00:13:56,850 --> 00:13:54,160 is another example of how this 301 00:13:59,060 --> 00:13:56,860 legislation can in the future prevent 302 00:14:01,170 --> 00:13:59,070 this from happening to other children 303 00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:01,180 we'd also like to point out that 304 00:14:05,580 --> 00:14:03,430 anecdotally this proposed legislation is 305 00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:05,590 already having a positive effect in our 306 00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:08,350 region we have had vaccine hesitant 307 00:14:11,850 --> 00:14:09,910 parents approached our group seeking 308 00:14:14,130 --> 00:14:11,860 more information about vaccination as a 309 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:14,140 direct result of it and they have told 310 00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:16,480 us that they are now reconsidering their 311 00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:19,540 stance local immunization providers have 312 00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:22,620 also reported similar stories 313 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:25,320 one concern we do have specific for our 314 00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:27,390 region is that many people have an 315 00:14:31,070 --> 00:14:29,040 alternative health care provider rather 316 00:14:34,070 --> 00:14:31,080 than a GP as their primary health care 317 00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:34,080 practitioner this is problematic for a 318 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:36,120 number of reasons it means that our 319 00:14:39,260 --> 00:14:37,290 notification rates of 320 00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:39,270 vaccine-preventable diseases may in fact 321 00:14:43,970 --> 00:14:42,180 be significantly underreported people 322 00:14:45,830 --> 00:14:43,980 are not being diagnosed or referred on 323 00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:45,840 by alternative health care practitioners 324 00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:48,150 and so notifications to public health 325 00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:50,910 may not be happening in addition many 326 00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,620 receive unproven remedies and 327 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:54,480 ineffective alternative vaccination 328 00:14:59,690 --> 00:14:57,090 options such as homeopathy forgoing 329 00:15:01,180 --> 00:14:59,700 proven preventive medicine effective 330 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:01,190 evidence-based treatments and 331 00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:03,330 potentially remaining infectious for 332 00:15:09,290 --> 00:15:06,720 longer as a result of all of this we 333 00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:09,300 have parents in our group who are too 334 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:10,860 frightened to take their babies out in 335 00:15:14,450 --> 00:15:13,110 public we have mothers not joining 336 00:15:16,490 --> 00:15:14,460 mothers groups missing out on those 337 00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:16,500 valuable social interactions and support 338 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:19,260 groups just yesterday a local dad 339 00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:21,180 contacted us who is putting the family 340 00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:22,980 home on the market to move from the area 341 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:24,480 because they can no longer cope with the 342 00:15:28,340 --> 00:15:25,710 prevailing sentiment regarding 343 00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:28,350 vaccination and the various conspiracy 344 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:30,630 theories surrounding the issue we have 345 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:32,430 parents contact us who have been told by 346 00:15:37,550 --> 00:15:34,590 other mums that vaccines cause autism or 347 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:37,560 shaken baby syndrome doctors midwives 348 00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:39,480 and alternative healthcare practitioners 349 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:41,160 in our region are giving conflicting 350 00:15:47,170 --> 00:15:43,500 advice leaving parents to wonder what 351 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:47,180 the best thing is to do for their baby 352 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:49,170 vaccination as you may have seen online 353 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:52,890 has been equated to rape or said to be a 354 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:54,570 government agenda to pander to 355 00:15:59,630 --> 00:15:56,730 pharmaceutical companies or as a form of 356 00:16:02,000 --> 00:15:59,640 population control the fear-mongering is 357 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:02,010 relentless here we are fighting an 358 00:16:06,050 --> 00:16:04,290 uphill battle for our community and thus 359 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:06,060 far there's been little research done in 360 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:08,370 to our region as to what approaches may 361 00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:10,110 help people gain confidence in the 362 00:16:16,269 --> 00:16:12,660 vaccination schedule or in how to stop 363 00:16:18,369 --> 00:16:16,279 the relentless tired of misinformation 364 00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:18,379 to help counter these issues in addition 365 00:16:22,179 --> 00:16:20,569 to this legislation we would propose an 366 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:22,189 annual reminder system linked to the 367 00:16:25,809 --> 00:16:23,810 Australian childhood immunization 368 00:16:27,819 --> 00:16:25,819 register in order to keep the lines of 369 00:16:30,009 --> 00:16:27,829 communication open with vaccine hesitant 370 00:16:32,079 --> 00:16:30,019 parents we'd also like to see the money 371 00:16:33,819 --> 00:16:32,089 saved from the legislation go towards 372 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:33,829 targeted education campaigns and 373 00:16:39,340 --> 00:16:36,050 research particularly into unique 374 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:39,350 demographics like ours one last concern 375 00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:41,569 is the probability of vaccine refuses 376 00:16:45,699 --> 00:16:43,430 forming unregistered casual childcare 377 00:16:47,230 --> 00:16:45,709 alliances exposing the children in the 378 00:16:49,629 --> 00:16:47,240 wider community to outbreaks of 379 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:49,639 preventable disease we would welcome any 380 00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:51,889 measures to have regulatory processes in 381 00:16:57,220 --> 00:16:54,980 place for such instances in conclusion 382 00:16:58,689 --> 00:16:57,230 we do support this legislation as we 383 00:17:01,119 --> 00:16:58,699 believe that it will protect those who 384 00:17:03,129 --> 00:17:01,129 have no choice especially those kids in 385 00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:03,139 childcare who are vaccinated but 386 00:17:06,429 --> 00:17:04,880 continually exposed to disease that 387 00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:06,439 should be relegated to the history books 388 00:17:11,289 --> 00:17:09,439 by now the young the elderly and those 389 00:17:13,569 --> 00:17:11,299 to seek to be vaccinated themselves 390 00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:13,579 those are the people that deserve our 391 00:17:18,850 --> 00:17:16,370 protection thank you the committee will 392 00:17:21,419 --> 00:17:18,860 be reporting on this on Monday the 393 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:21,429 nights of November we have been advised 394 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:25,610 so we'll keep you posted that's all from 395 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:29,090 me for this week until next time this is 396 00:17:42,970 --> 00:17:31,250 heidi robertson signing off 397 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:42,980 bye welcome to a week in science from 398 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:45,110 our iOS bringing you the science you 399 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:47,570 need to know with features like parking 400 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:49,910 assist automated breaking and adaptive 401 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:52,130 cruise control we're already well on our 402 00:17:56,290 --> 00:17:54,770 way to having driverless cars in fact 403 00:18:07,320 --> 00:17:56,300 manufacturers say that they'll be in 404 00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:10,300 prototypes from nissen Volvo Audi and 405 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:12,800 Google use a variety of sensors mounted 406 00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:14,810 on the car to build a detailed picture 407 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:17,150 of its surroundings one of the main 408 00:18:22,330 --> 00:18:19,610 sensors is a type of laser called lidar 409 00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:22,340 it sends out rapid pulses of non visible 410 00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:24,860 light and measures the time they take to 411 00:18:28,990 --> 00:18:26,840 bounce off objects and return because 412 00:18:31,150 --> 00:18:29,000 light moves at a constant speed we can 413 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:31,160 then calculate the cars distance from 414 00:18:36,190 --> 00:18:33,770 that object and build a 3d image of its 415 00:18:38,290 --> 00:18:36,200 environment the data from later is 416 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:38,300 combined with video and radar sensor 417 00:18:42,340 --> 00:18:40,250 information and is processed by an 418 00:18:44,860 --> 00:18:42,350 on-board computer that makes decisions 419 00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:44,870 about steering braking and acceleration 420 00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:47,750 this sophisticated programming requires 421 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:50,060 the computer to self learn so that it 422 00:18:56,060 --> 00:18:52,130 can still choose the correct action when 423 00:18:58,730 --> 00:18:56,070 it encounters unexpected scenarios 424 00:19:00,320 --> 00:18:58,740 I can see the appeal of a driverless car 425 00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:00,330 allowing you to better use your 426 00:19:03,530 --> 00:19:01,920 commuting time and providing 427 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:03,540 independence to people who couldn't 428 00:19:08,510 --> 00:19:06,090 otherwise drive plus they could save 429 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:08,520 thousands of lives by removing human 430 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:10,350 driver error which accounts for over 431 00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:12,690 ninety percent of crusher's they could 432 00:19:17,030 --> 00:19:14,580 also benefit the environment by reducing 433 00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:17,040 the number of cars on the road one 434 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:19,080 vehicle could serve the whole family by 435 00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:20,850 driving itself between pickups and 436 00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:23,700 drop-offs or in a reimagined taxi 437 00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:25,860 service rather than owning a car at all 438 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:28,320 you could lodge a transport request and 439 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:30,410 whatever car is closest will pick you up 440 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:32,910 smart braking and acceleration could 441 00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:35,250 potentially increase fuel efficiency by 442 00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:37,470 twenty-five percent and communication 443 00:19:41,570 --> 00:19:39,390 between cars will mean that road space 444 00:19:43,820 --> 00:19:41,580 is used better and commuting times 445 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:43,830 become shorter but there are some 446 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:46,110 concerns so let's take a look at the top 447 00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:50,730 four first are concerns about licensing 448 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:53,100 and legal issues if your driver Lascar 449 00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,370 is in a crash who is liable viruses and 450 00:20:00,770 --> 00:19:58,320 malfunctions in the software are another 451 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:00,780 worry if we can't have bug free internet 452 00:20:05,690 --> 00:20:02,850 browsers is it even possible to make a 453 00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:05,700 bug free car a third potential impact is 454 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:07,740 that the technology will encourage urban 455 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:09,810 sprawl with people tolerating long 456 00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:11,010 commutes when they're not actually 457 00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:14,100 driving and finally the idea of someone 458 00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:16,260 being able to remotely hack your car 459 00:20:21,380 --> 00:20:18,720 raises some scary safety and even 460 00:20:23,450 --> 00:20:21,390 terrorism concerns that's it for this 461 00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:23,460 week in science for more information on 462 00:20:29,390 --> 00:20:25,620 driverless cars go to the are ales 463 00:20:31,670 --> 00:20:29,400 website RI aus org dot a you follow us 464 00:20:33,950 --> 00:20:31,680 on twitter at our AOS and like us on 465 00:20:45,950 --> 00:20:33,960 facebook I'm curing room and we'll catch 466 00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:48,810 on to help support the skeptic zone and 467 00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:51,160 look pretty damn stylish while you're 468 00:20:58,380 --> 00:20:55,440 about it visit mr. Katz origami jewelry 469 00:21:01,530 --> 00:20:58,390 wwc eggs on TV and click the link or 470 00:21:05,370 --> 00:21:01,540 simply Google mr. Katz origami jewelry 471 00:21:09,630 --> 00:21:05,380 also on Facebook pendants earrings and 472 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:09,640 cufflinks support mr. cat support the 473 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:22,570 skeptics own ears may not spooky action 474 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:26,730 at the distance 475 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:30,750 I look around a one here in our visiting 476 00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:31,890 American that you've already heard on 477 00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,830 the show we've got 0 ng rocky right now 478 00:21:38,539 --> 00:21:36,720 you've seen the Brisbane skeptics in 479 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:38,549 action on stage how do you think if it 480 00:21:40,730 --> 00:21:39,330 has its compared to the other ones 481 00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:40,740 you're being too around the world as you 482 00:21:44,299 --> 00:21:43,140 you are just traveling everywhere if 483 00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:44,309 there's a skeptical thing on you'll be 484 00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:47,220 there I love it i just love it the 485 00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:48,600 people are so wonderful and i love 486 00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:53,630 talking to people who have questioning 487 00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:55,950 mindset said well and it's a great venue 488 00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:57,600 to all this beautiful glass and the Sun 489 00:22:00,530 --> 00:21:58,980 shines coming in but got enough for your 490 00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,540 condition to keep it cool oh yeah the 491 00:22:05,780 --> 00:22:03,120 gardens are beautiful Joe Nickell 492 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:05,790 cruising he's cruising boozing positive 493 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:08,010 I reckon he'd be a tough guy if he goes 494 00:22:10,610 --> 00:22:09,510 to buy like a washing machine and refrig 495 00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:10,620 she'd be the hardest guy to sell 496 00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:12,870 something to probably very likely he'd 497 00:22:16,220 --> 00:22:14,400 probably end up selling that person a 498 00:22:19,159 --> 00:22:16,230 wooden nickel yes something like that 499 00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:19,169 kind of guy and then kind of people have 500 00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:20,190 come to this long as you've been to a 501 00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:21,660 couple of different skeptics conventions 502 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:23,150 in Australia is there a different 503 00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:26,010 Queenslander fields of this well I 504 00:22:29,030 --> 00:22:27,360 haven't been able to see as much of the 505 00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:29,040 city as i did when i was in Sydney but 506 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:30,480 it looking because you've been going out 507 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:32,520 at night you've been roaming the streets 508 00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:34,530 at night I wouldn't consider it roaming 509 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:38,700 but whatever so anyway know that the 510 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:40,890 people are just they're always wonderful 511 00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:42,210 and it's a little bit of a different 512 00:22:47,630 --> 00:22:45,360 feel to it it's a little less glitzy 513 00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:47,640 than it did down in Sydney but it but I 514 00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:50,980 just love that people are so genuine 515 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:52,750 I'm here with one of the speakers I've 516 00:22:57,180 --> 00:22:54,970 just met what's your name sir Jim coin 517 00:22:59,549 --> 00:22:57,190 from Philadelphia ah Philadelphia that 518 00:23:01,169 --> 00:22:59,559 the city of that's brotherly love goes 519 00:23:03,090 --> 00:23:01,179 on there doesn't it that's right so they 520 00:23:08,370 --> 00:23:03,100 got same-sex marriage it or not oh yeah 521 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:08,380 get a lively gay community also right is 522 00:23:12,330 --> 00:23:10,120 there a lively debate when it happened 523 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:12,340 or not no I think it was settled cool 524 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:14,410 yeah right yes so so why do you in the 525 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:15,910 desert we have grown up here when I like 526 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:19,210 this area I was attracted to university 527 00:23:23,789 --> 00:23:21,850 of pennsylvania wow you're here this 528 00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:23,799 weekend to talk about the pitfalls of 529 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:25,360 positive thinking would that be a good 530 00:23:29,930 --> 00:23:26,890 way to say it's even better than that 531 00:23:32,669 --> 00:23:29,940 the pseudoscience of positive psychology 532 00:23:35,820 --> 00:23:32,679 there's no reason why we can't have a 533 00:23:39,620 --> 00:23:35,830 science of how to lead a better life but 534 00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:39,630 i think it's it's it's become such a 535 00:23:46,409 --> 00:23:42,880 industry promoting self-help books in 536 00:23:49,230 --> 00:23:46,419 coaching and it it's promoted by 537 00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:49,240 undermining people sense of their 538 00:23:54,150 --> 00:23:52,270 comfortable in themselves throwing at 539 00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:54,160 you drew barrymore here now drew 540 00:23:57,630 --> 00:23:55,510 barrymore says it every morning she 541 00:23:59,760 --> 00:23:57,640 imagines her day going perfectly and her 542 00:24:01,440 --> 00:23:59,770 being successful and she creates her own 543 00:24:02,909 --> 00:24:01,450 reality by doing that would that be an 544 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:02,919 example of what you're talking about 545 00:24:06,210 --> 00:24:04,750 Shirley and then it sets are up to be 546 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:06,220 unhappy because it doesn't happen that 547 00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:07,630 way every day you know the fact that 548 00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:09,190 she's steven spielberg's goddaughter 549 00:24:13,860 --> 00:24:11,950 would help a lot that probably helps so 550 00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:13,870 what do you think we see successful 551 00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:15,220 people doing this and we go oh well 552 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:16,360 that's what I'm doing wrong that's why 553 00:24:21,450 --> 00:24:18,730 I'm not like Drew Barrymore absolutely I 554 00:24:23,159 --> 00:24:21,460 think it comes from being successful 555 00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:23,169 enough from doing those silly exercises 556 00:24:26,940 --> 00:24:25,360 hmm and so what should we be doing is 557 00:24:28,350 --> 00:24:26,950 there something where we think ok I'm 558 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:28,360 going to do some positive thinking and 559 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:30,520 how should we skeptically look at it ah 560 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:32,290 we should be prepared for the 561 00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:34,090 possibility it won't be a good day and 562 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:38,080 deal with it ok realism not optimism oh 563 00:24:40,890 --> 00:24:39,730 that's a neutral but realism is very 564 00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:40,900 good so you think people could set 565 00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:42,400 themselves up for perhaps being even 566 00:24:45,570 --> 00:24:43,900 more depressed when things don't go the 567 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:45,580 way they want absolutely I think you can 568 00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:46,900 make yourself absolutely miserable 569 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:49,630 trying too hard to be happy well so how 570 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:51,250 do you find the happy medium how do you 571 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:52,450 find that reality because for some 572 00:24:58,169 --> 00:24:54,250 people that can be difficult I think 573 00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:58,179 just suspend expectations runway the 574 00:25:01,550 --> 00:24:59,919 other and just deal with things as they 575 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:01,560 come up positive or negative 576 00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:03,390 and I've been asking a few skeptics at 577 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:05,430 this this weekend if there was one whew 578 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:07,260 that was actually real if there was one 579 00:25:12,530 --> 00:25:09,450 sort of a pseudoscience it was real what 580 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:12,540 would you like that one to be I think 581 00:25:17,420 --> 00:25:15,810 you can sir away oh right cuz I'd 582 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:17,430 forgotten of course positive thinking 583 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:20,250 goes into that so that can relay it oh 584 00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:21,570 that must be terrible for people because 585 00:25:24,860 --> 00:25:22,860 i think i've been doing the positive 586 00:25:26,420 --> 00:25:24,870 thinking the cans is not going away it's 587 00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:26,430 my fault you can get that early yeah 588 00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:30,420 yeah and and i think there's no evidence 589 00:25:35,630 --> 00:25:32,390 that attitude has anything to do with 590 00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,640 our physical outcomes of cancer and I 591 00:25:39,470 --> 00:25:37,440 think if people want to be angry and 592 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:39,480 find no benefit it will find cancer 593 00:25:44,180 --> 00:25:41,310 inconvenient they should be free to do 594 00:25:45,950 --> 00:25:44,190 that it won't affect their outcomes okay 595 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:45,960 I'm what do you make of our skeptical 596 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:47,850 movement here in Australia so far it's 597 00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:49,530 wonderful I think it's a bunch of 598 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:51,840 citizen scientist going out in 599 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:53,850 challenging people with evidence I I'd 600 00:25:57,610 --> 00:25:55,530 love to see more of that and where can 601 00:26:00,530 --> 00:25:57,620 we find your website read more about you 602 00:26:03,620 --> 00:26:00,540 just look at google coins of the realm 603 00:26:05,270 --> 00:26:03,630 one word wow ok great you have a great 604 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:05,280 time here thank you very much i'm going 605 00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:06,690 to try and think positively but not too 606 00:26:18,010 --> 00:26:16,740 new be here if I chechi from a skeptic 607 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:18,020 zone yes 608 00:26:21,070 --> 00:26:19,910 well everyone's rushing and hushing and 609 00:26:22,660 --> 00:26:21,080 pushing bit of coffee over in the corner 610 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:22,670 and trying to get to the bananas before 611 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:24,710 they run out but who we got here Ilana 612 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:27,110 your first time in a skeptics event yes 613 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:28,730 yes it is how did you get here these 614 00:26:31,930 --> 00:26:30,050 suspicious friends with you dragged you 615 00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:31,940 along well how did you get it yes cast 616 00:26:35,860 --> 00:26:34,070 is my chewed-up oh yeah and she was 617 00:26:37,690 --> 00:26:35,870 telling me about the society and she 618 00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:37,700 invited me along for the weekend what 619 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:39,440 particular area of skepticism interest 620 00:26:44,770 --> 00:26:42,110 you um well we were talking about the 621 00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:44,780 anti-vaccine Lee and that's sort of what 622 00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:47,120 led us into there because my mother is 623 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:49,430 very against vaccinations also you must 624 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:51,290 have great Christmas dinners yeah so 625 00:26:54,910 --> 00:26:52,610 it's very amusing to talk to her about 626 00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:54,920 and Kass is giving me all the details on 627 00:26:58,990 --> 00:26:57,110 the background for it to hog you and 628 00:27:00,910 --> 00:26:59,000 create many fights with my mother yes I 629 00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:00,920 was gonna say yes because your parents 630 00:27:03,550 --> 00:27:02,120 know the buttons to push when they're 631 00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:03,560 arguing with the done thing and all that 632 00:27:07,690 --> 00:27:05,300 emotive stuff they break in your 633 00:27:09,820 --> 00:27:07,700 childhood and yeah so she's just been 634 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:09,830 giving me the facts so I can have a very 635 00:27:13,570 --> 00:27:11,810 solid argument against her in her crazy 636 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:13,580 ways so now what do you make of the 637 00:27:16,150 --> 00:27:14,690 people that come here they're there 638 00:27:17,770 --> 00:27:16,160 aren't many neckbeards normally you'd 639 00:27:20,170 --> 00:27:17,780 expect more neck neck beards than this 640 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:20,180 but that yes yes as a good collection of 641 00:27:24,130 --> 00:27:22,490 jokers and jeans it's a fantastic I was 642 00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:24,140 also going to do joggers but I was told 643 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:25,520 I wasn't allowed don't you dressed up 644 00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:27,530 yes I dressed up I thought I'd put my 645 00:27:31,540 --> 00:27:29,870 best foot forward for the first class 646 00:27:33,460 --> 00:27:31,550 convention I've only had the morning 647 00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:33,470 talk so we've had stuff about Wikipedia 648 00:27:36,430 --> 00:27:34,880 had stuff about diets is there anything 649 00:27:38,860 --> 00:27:36,440 you weren't oh yeah that's right in 650 00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:38,870 other diet stuff was hilarious very well 651 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:41,180 presented I was trying to hysterically 652 00:27:44,890 --> 00:27:42,890 laugh in the audience and break through 653 00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:44,900 and abuse have you been sucked into a 654 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:47,240 fad diet at any stage hang on your 655 00:27:52,660 --> 00:27:50,810 friends laughing has she well we were 656 00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:52,670 both privately schooled and it comes 657 00:27:57,970 --> 00:27:55,910 with a lot of Pisces they get an engine 658 00:28:00,010 --> 00:27:57,980 from an early age crazy girls at lunches 659 00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:00,020 and what I'm definitely very familiar 660 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:01,640 with lemon detox very mint formals 661 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:03,170 coming you have to eat in a certain way 662 00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:04,130 and 663 00:28:07,570 --> 00:28:05,990 yes everybody scribbles away their 664 00:28:09,010 --> 00:28:07,580 ritalin to take extra snout so they can 665 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:09,020 thin down that sort of stuff oh yeah I 666 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:12,050 know what goes on in the bra come on 667 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:13,970 with it yes I which diet do you think 668 00:28:17,170 --> 00:28:15,110 was the funniest one there was some 669 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:17,180 grapefruit ones the full moon diet 670 00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:19,490 definitely the werewolf start for those 671 00:28:22,750 --> 00:28:21,260 people werewolf that's right yeah it 672 00:28:24,460 --> 00:28:22,760 didn't actually say just said don't eat 673 00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:24,470 well as a full moon and then you'd eat 674 00:28:28,660 --> 00:28:26,060 other stuff at other cycles of the moon 675 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:28,670 it's very specific bizarre what did you 676 00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:30,050 find out the weird diets which one did 677 00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:31,460 you think the strange I mean definitely 678 00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:34,880 yes the werewolf diet um I think the 55 679 00:28:39,370 --> 00:28:36,950 bites diet in general just hilarious 680 00:28:41,290 --> 00:28:39,380 since yeah exactly so much with your 681 00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:41,300 mouth sighs exactly as he argued i am 682 00:28:46,570 --> 00:28:43,310 also of Italian descent and I can eat a 683 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:46,580 lot in five man tell me other southern 684 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:47,930 Italians been looking in the northern 685 00:28:50,590 --> 00:28:49,370 Italians I thought it was that they're 686 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:50,600 always arguing over there I think it's 687 00:28:56,380 --> 00:28:52,490 just more Sun more Sun you get tanner 688 00:28:57,370 --> 00:28:56,390 all right 10 ok let's go now what are 689 00:28:59,620 --> 00:28:57,380 you looking forward to for the rest of 690 00:29:02,410 --> 00:28:59,630 the weekend here with the skeptics um 691 00:29:03,490 --> 00:29:02,420 well I cheater Cassandra's talk we're 692 00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:03,500 looking forward to let I think it's on 693 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:05,440 marijuana is it on yeah exactly 694 00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:07,970 wonderful well I heard this is the first 695 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:09,440 of many skeptic events or have you been 696 00:29:12,490 --> 00:29:10,850 to many before have you know it's his 697 00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:12,500 first time but for both bathroom what do 698 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:14,900 you make in the crowd um I think it's 699 00:29:18,010 --> 00:29:16,250 really interesting it's a great mix of 700 00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:18,020 people okay and it is really great to 701 00:29:21,220 --> 00:29:19,190 see more women getting involved in the 702 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:21,230 movement too yes definitely well thank 703 00:29:26,110 --> 00:29:22,370 you very much to have some future 704 00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:26,120 activists here yes yes thank you and 705 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:28,190 your names again hi Brina and a lot oh 706 00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:31,970 right I know so we're here in the cooler 707 00:29:36,610 --> 00:29:34,460 section of the garden theater just down 708 00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:36,620 and I'm here that Eugenie Scott welcome 709 00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:38,540 to Australia yet again thank you of 710 00:29:41,650 --> 00:29:39,920 course when every year with the 711 00:29:43,810 --> 00:29:41,660 Australian skeptics you are with the 712 00:29:46,450 --> 00:29:43,820 cool people yeah well I'm glad we've got 713 00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:46,460 that worldwide reputation tell me when 714 00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:47,900 did you become a skeptic was there a 715 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:50,390 moment where you said that's it I'm down 716 00:29:55,540 --> 00:29:53,510 with this stuff oh man that's a really 717 00:29:58,690 --> 00:29:55,550 hard question to it was a gradual 718 00:30:01,770 --> 00:29:58,700 process you know I maybe I'm getting old 719 00:30:06,340 --> 00:30:01,780 I don't remember I think certainly the 720 00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:06,350 the first glimpse that I got that there 721 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:09,260 actually was a can you call the skeptics 722 00:30:12,910 --> 00:30:10,970 organized that may not be the right but 723 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:12,920 there was at there were actually a group 724 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:13,970 of people who are 725 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:17,810 cerned about crazy ideas that many 726 00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:20,510 people hold was back when I got 727 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:22,430 interested in creationism which was as a 728 00:30:25,690 --> 00:30:24,290 graduate student and then one of my 729 00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:25,700 professor says well here's this 730 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:30,020 organization called the you know a sigh 731 00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,930 cop and they're they're in there looking 732 00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:34,640 at all kinds of things including in 733 00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,230 creationism was one of the things on 734 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:38,480 their list as well so I became aware 735 00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:41,810 that there was this whole universe out 736 00:30:48,220 --> 00:30:43,940 there of people who believed in things 737 00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:48,230 like astrology and so forth and and as 738 00:30:54,910 --> 00:30:52,160 it happens I have quite a few members of 739 00:30:58,690 --> 00:30:54,920 my own family who are quite enthusiastic 740 00:31:00,130 --> 00:30:58,700 about various woo topics so this has 741 00:31:02,140 --> 00:31:00,140 come up a bit this weekend but I've been 742 00:31:04,330 --> 00:31:02,150 talking to new skeptics old people 743 00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:04,340 people from University scientists 744 00:31:07,870 --> 00:31:06,320 there's someone in the family and what's 745 00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:07,880 the best way to handle that someone has 746 00:31:11,020 --> 00:31:09,200 had a bit of experience in this field 747 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:11,030 obvious if you push too hard you're 748 00:31:14,260 --> 00:31:11,930 going to have a very unfriendly 749 00:31:16,750 --> 00:31:14,270 Christmas dinner well I don't think you 750 00:31:18,790 --> 00:31:16,760 can I mean I can talk to your crazy 751 00:31:20,590 --> 00:31:18,800 relative and maybe you can talk to my 752 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:20,600 crazy relative but I can't talk to my 753 00:31:25,690 --> 00:31:23,450 crazy relative because they're just too 754 00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:25,700 many other things you've had a whole 755 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:28,400 lifetime of relationships good better 756 00:31:34,450 --> 00:31:31,780 and different and to bring up a 757 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:34,460 something like empirical evidence in 758 00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:36,650 logical ways of looking at things that's 759 00:31:40,150 --> 00:31:38,510 a completely different world than the 760 00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:40,160 kind of personal relationships you have 761 00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:42,830 with people so I'm quite serious it's 762 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:44,840 like it's like debating politics and 763 00:31:49,090 --> 00:31:46,250 some if you're really serious about 764 00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,100 politics you might want to persuade 765 00:31:53,860 --> 00:31:51,440 somebody else's goofy brother-in-law 766 00:31:56,989 --> 00:31:53,870 rather than your own and what's been the 767 00:32:01,699 --> 00:31:56,999 biggest battle you been fighting lately 768 00:32:03,499 --> 00:32:01,709 ah well I am retired now so technically 769 00:32:05,299 --> 00:32:03,509 speaking I don't have to fight the 770 00:32:06,589 --> 00:32:05,309 battles that my colleagues at the 771 00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:06,599 National Center for Science Education 772 00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:11,039 are doing quite well trying to keep lids 773 00:32:19,159 --> 00:32:14,129 on the creationism and anti climate 774 00:32:21,349 --> 00:32:19,169 change topics I I help where I can I'm 775 00:32:23,989 --> 00:32:21,359 still volunteering at NCSE I'm working 776 00:32:25,999 --> 00:32:23,999 in the archives but I'm not as on the 777 00:32:28,459 --> 00:32:26,009 front lines anymore have you started any 778 00:32:31,189 --> 00:32:28,469 arguments on the internet lately no 779 00:32:33,709 --> 00:32:31,199 because I learned a long time ago that 780 00:32:36,289 --> 00:32:33,719 there are many more fruitful ways of 781 00:32:39,499 --> 00:32:36,299 spending my time mmm and it's 782 00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:39,509 creationism on the rise more or less and 783 00:32:43,009 --> 00:32:41,279 as the battle normally to be fought in 784 00:32:44,949 --> 00:32:43,019 Texas because of its power over the 785 00:32:49,309 --> 00:32:44,959 skills school book system in the US 786 00:32:51,859 --> 00:32:49,319 Texas is part of a conservative part of 787 00:32:54,979 --> 00:32:51,869 the country it's also a very large state 788 00:32:56,599 --> 00:32:54,989 it has a lot of students it has spends a 789 00:32:59,499 --> 00:32:56,609 lot of money on education there are many 790 00:33:02,599 --> 00:32:59,509 reasons why eyes tend to be on 791 00:33:06,769 --> 00:33:02,609 creationism and other education issues 792 00:33:09,409 --> 00:33:06,779 in Texas but it it shouldn't be tight 793 00:33:11,719 --> 00:33:09,419 the importance of Texas should not be 794 00:33:13,999 --> 00:33:11,729 overstated its actually waned over the 795 00:33:18,439 --> 00:33:14,009 years because there have been changes in 796 00:33:20,989 --> 00:33:18,449 the Texas regulations governing public 797 00:33:25,089 --> 00:33:20,999 public education they've also been 798 00:33:27,769 --> 00:33:25,099 changes in the textbook industry as well 799 00:33:30,249 --> 00:33:27,779 it used to be the case we would be 800 00:33:32,659 --> 00:33:30,259 extremely concerned about Texas because 801 00:33:34,849 --> 00:33:32,669 publishers would write for the very 802 00:33:37,249 --> 00:33:34,859 large Texas market and then everybody 803 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:37,259 else would get their books now with 804 00:33:43,399 --> 00:33:40,769 modular publishing being so simple in 805 00:33:45,649 --> 00:33:43,409 the digital revolution etc etc you can 806 00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:45,659 write a book that's got goofball science 807 00:33:49,609 --> 00:33:48,089 for Texas and sorry about that for Texas 808 00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:49,619 students that's not so great but 809 00:33:54,019 --> 00:33:51,809 students in California don't have the 810 00:33:57,139 --> 00:33:54,029 grab don't have to have the crummy Texas 811 00:33:59,629 --> 00:33:57,149 book and so the power of Texas to 812 00:34:03,049 --> 00:33:59,639 influence textbooks across the board has 813 00:34:07,399 --> 00:34:03,059 waned considerably and with the power of 814 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:07,409 religiosity with people driven and Phil 815 00:34:12,859 --> 00:34:09,210 they have to do some people's for hire 816 00:34:14,659 --> 00:34:12,869 does that make them a bit more bit more 817 00:34:15,740 --> 00:34:14,669 zealots than scientists would be because 818 00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:15,750 you're basically following the evidence 819 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:17,369 where the people against you are 820 00:34:24,740 --> 00:34:20,250 following a higher power well I was used 821 00:34:27,379 --> 00:34:24,750 to joke that we had a much tougher row 822 00:34:30,139 --> 00:34:27,389 to hoe those of us who support evolution 823 00:34:34,070 --> 00:34:30,149 than those who support creationism in 824 00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:34,080 public schools because you know Darwin 825 00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:36,510 did not die for anybody since we do not 826 00:34:43,310 --> 00:34:40,080 have that kind of existential if you 827 00:34:45,230 --> 00:34:43,320 will a power that goes along with 828 00:34:49,339 --> 00:34:45,240 salvation and many of these other 829 00:34:52,369 --> 00:34:49,349 religious beliefs that said it's I 830 00:34:55,070 --> 00:34:52,379 always also remind people that our best 831 00:34:57,620 --> 00:34:55,080 allies in keeping evolution in the 832 00:34:59,930 --> 00:34:57,630 schools in the American public schools 833 00:35:02,210 --> 00:34:59,940 is members of the mainstream clergy 834 00:35:04,970 --> 00:35:02,220 because they don't want somebody else's 835 00:35:09,490 --> 00:35:04,980 religion taught in a science class so 836 00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:11,900 look at the creation and evolution 837 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:14,790 problem in the United States is strictly 838 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:16,650 uni-dimensional it isn't it's much more 839 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:19,410 complicated than that well and what is 840 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:20,910 something you see could arise a problem 841 00:35:28,430 --> 00:35:25,650 in the future well I'm waiting as it 842 00:35:31,730 --> 00:35:28,440 were I'm going to be giving a talk at 843 00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:31,740 the skeptics conference about the 844 00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:34,020 kitzmiller versus tovar intelligent 845 00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:36,900 design trial which was held now we're 846 00:35:42,589 --> 00:35:39,900 dating our broadcast here ten years ago 847 00:35:47,870 --> 00:35:42,599 this fall it's amazing that so much time 848 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:47,880 has has passed and of course traditional 849 00:35:54,020 --> 00:35:50,810 young earth creationism is still around 850 00:35:56,930 --> 00:35:54,030 intelligent design is still around the 851 00:35:59,630 --> 00:35:56,940 fact that we defeat these people in 852 00:36:01,640 --> 00:35:59,640 court means that they have that doesn't 853 00:36:03,380 --> 00:36:01,650 mean that they just go away and change 854 00:36:07,339 --> 00:36:03,390 their ideas that means that they change 855 00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:07,349 their tactics the good news so far is 856 00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:12,390 that we've been able to keep ahead by 857 00:36:18,530 --> 00:36:15,420 and large because the anti evolutionist 858 00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:18,540 movement keeps making a lot of mistakes 859 00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:21,120 the major mistake that they have made 860 00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:23,760 through the many many decades is coming 861 00:36:30,740 --> 00:36:26,730 up with quote alternatives to evolution 862 00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:30,750 that all are too religious but the 863 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:33,440 strategy that's being used right now is 864 00:36:37,850 --> 00:36:36,090 much more clever than those earlier 865 00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:37,860 strategies which were able to be 866 00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:40,260 defeated given our legal system because 867 00:36:44,540 --> 00:36:42,540 you cannot advocate school you cannot 868 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:44,550 advocate religion in the public schools 869 00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:46,680 and we've been able to show that all of 870 00:36:52,010 --> 00:36:48,960 the various creationist or intelligent 871 00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:52,020 design efforts were attempts to get 872 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:53,820 religion in the public school so we've 873 00:36:58,760 --> 00:36:56,490 succeeded there but now the effort is 874 00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:58,770 much more subtle it's sort of 875 00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:01,440 creationism by the back door rather than 876 00:37:06,350 --> 00:37:04,350 saying well let's teach evolution but 877 00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:06,360 then balance it by teaching some kind of 878 00:37:10,910 --> 00:37:08,310 creationism or intelligent design 879 00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:10,920 they're saying we'll teach evolution but 880 00:37:15,740 --> 00:37:13,230 balance it by teaching the evidence 881 00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:15,750 against evolution and of course there 882 00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:18,510 isn't any mmm the only place you find 883 00:37:24,380 --> 00:37:20,310 the so-called evidence against evolution 884 00:37:26,770 --> 00:37:24,390 is in the creationist literature so it's 885 00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:26,780 a way of kind of slipping these ideas 886 00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:29,880 although not you know Frank creationism 887 00:37:37,220 --> 00:37:35,190 it's though a way of trying to teach 888 00:37:38,660 --> 00:37:37,230 students that evolution is really weak 889 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:38,670 science they don't have to take it 890 00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:41,370 seriously with the assumption which is 891 00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:43,380 probably fairly correct in a country 892 00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:45,420 like the United States that students 893 00:37:52,850 --> 00:37:49,920 will just automatically default if you 894 00:37:55,070 --> 00:37:52,860 will to the idea of creationism because 895 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:55,080 they look at this dichotomy so it's 896 00:37:59,120 --> 00:37:56,970 either evolution or creation ism with a 897 00:38:01,310 --> 00:37:59,130 few if evolution isn't any good then 898 00:38:03,620 --> 00:38:01,320 creation is a must've happened so it's a 899 00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:03,630 much more clever strategy in terms of 900 00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:05,910 the legal landscape in the United States 901 00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:09,440 and do who's who's been the toughest 902 00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:11,700 opponent you've come up against sin your 903 00:38:18,020 --> 00:38:14,720 career of fighting creationism hmm 904 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:18,030 interestingly enough I would say it was 905 00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:21,090 Henry Morris the founder of the creation 906 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:24,800 science movement simply because he has 907 00:38:29,740 --> 00:38:28,050 he wrote so much he built this movement 908 00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:29,750 up out of nothing really 909 00:38:37,020 --> 00:38:34,510 he worked decades producing this idea of 910 00:38:38,770 --> 00:38:37,030 fled geology and young Earth Creationism 911 00:38:40,450 --> 00:38:38,780 imagine he has an answer for everything 912 00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:40,460 because he's experienced every question 913 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:44,000 Henry Morris died and i think 2002 but 914 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:46,730 he is still very very highly respected 915 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:49,250 his books are still in print he has a 916 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:51,050 huge amount of influence among 917 00:38:55,570 --> 00:38:52,730 conservative christians in the united 918 00:38:58,570 --> 00:38:55,580 states so as the founder of the movement 919 00:39:01,180 --> 00:38:58,580 he still is a force to be reckoned with 920 00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:01,190 even though he personally is not on the 921 00:39:06,730 --> 00:39:04,190 scene anymore but um with so many 922 00:39:08,410 --> 00:39:06,740 different sects like the Presbyterians 923 00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:08,420 and Methodists and the Anglicans and the 924 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:09,860 Catholics they all believe in the same 925 00:39:14,860 --> 00:39:13,130 creationism myth not a bit pretty much 926 00:39:17,860 --> 00:39:14,870 every single one of the groups that you 927 00:39:19,870 --> 00:39:17,870 mentioned accepts evolution because 928 00:39:22,450 --> 00:39:19,880 their theology is something called 929 00:39:24,850 --> 00:39:22,460 theistic evolution which means we'll of 930 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:24,860 course evolution took place living 931 00:39:28,810 --> 00:39:26,810 things descended with modification from 932 00:39:31,330 --> 00:39:28,820 earlier forms humans share common 933 00:39:35,050 --> 00:39:31,340 ancestors with other animals etc but 934 00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:35,060 this was part of God's plan I what I 935 00:39:42,970 --> 00:39:39,020 found is that most religious people if 936 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:42,980 you allow them to accommodate their 937 00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:46,970 religious views to science they can do 938 00:39:54,340 --> 00:39:50,950 it if you force people to make a 939 00:39:56,590 --> 00:39:54,350 dichotomous choice if you act like a 940 00:39:58,720 --> 00:39:56,600 creationist in other words force people 941 00:40:01,330 --> 00:39:58,730 to choose either between evolution or 942 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:01,340 creation in the United States at least 943 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:03,890 we're a very large percentage of the 944 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:07,010 public is our people who believe in God 945 00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:10,330 and who have some religious affiliation 946 00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:12,470 people are going to say well if I have 947 00:40:16,990 --> 00:40:14,480 to choose obviously what I'm going to 948 00:40:19,420 --> 00:40:17,000 choose is what gives my life meaning is 949 00:40:24,130 --> 00:40:19,430 what ties me to a community of people 950 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:24,140 ties me to family ties me to my beliefs 951 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:26,930 that I feel are very important why would 952 00:40:32,590 --> 00:40:29,690 I accept this idea that I don't really 953 00:40:34,090 --> 00:40:32,600 understand very well anyway by evolution 954 00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:34,100 I'm going to be I'm going to remain a 955 00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:37,070 creationist and what is Islam sit with 956 00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:38,960 creationism because there's would be 957 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:40,800 very different again 958 00:40:46,940 --> 00:40:43,530 the basic story is very similar because 959 00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:46,950 in the three Middle Eastern monotheism's 960 00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:50,400 of Christianity Judaism and Islam you 961 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:52,470 are still dealing with the basic genesis 962 00:41:00,920 --> 00:40:56,690 story Islam is fascinating because 963 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:00,930 unlike Catholicism unlike Mormonism and 964 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:05,730 like many Christian groups Islam is very 965 00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:08,610 decentralized there's no pope equivalent 966 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:10,830 or president equivalent like with the 967 00:41:17,390 --> 00:41:12,810 Mormons there's no somebody there's no 968 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:17,400 body that sets theology the Islam is 969 00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:19,710 sort of the original BYO theology I mean 970 00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:22,350 every little Imam can kind of interpret 971 00:41:29,810 --> 00:41:26,220 the Koran as he wants and as long as he 972 00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:29,820 can get a following he's going to have a 973 00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:32,550 group of people who will you know do 974 00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:35,910 what he says so what you find is a great 975 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:39,510 deal of variation within Islam you find 976 00:41:45,650 --> 00:41:43,530 some better educated really Muslims who 977 00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:45,660 accept science and don't really have a 978 00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:48,000 problem but there really a minority the 979 00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:52,080 majority of of Imams out there are 980 00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:53,990 holding to a fairly literal 981 00:41:58,580 --> 00:41:56,390 interpretation of the Koran which 982 00:42:00,560 --> 00:41:58,590 whenever you have a literal 983 00:42:02,060 --> 00:42:00,570 interpretation of your holy sex you're 984 00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:02,070 going to have problems with science yeah 985 00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:05,640 and you in saying that that literal 986 00:42:11,690 --> 00:42:07,800 interpretation is wrong that the you got 987 00:42:14,210 --> 00:42:11,700 problems there yes exactly because you 988 00:42:18,140 --> 00:42:14,220 may be setting yourself up for a fatwa 989 00:42:19,490 --> 00:42:18,150 or some other kind of assault and so has 990 00:42:22,010 --> 00:42:19,500 have been any sort of issue with the 991 00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:22,020 battle so far it has not so much in the 992 00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:24,240 United States more so in Great Britain 993 00:42:29,839 --> 00:42:27,569 where you do have a fairly 994 00:42:33,849 --> 00:42:29,849 large and increasingly vocal a 995 00:42:37,549 --> 00:42:33,859 muslim-majority populum minority and 996 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:37,559 what I'm hearing and this is totally 997 00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:41,130 anecdotal what I'm hearing from friends 998 00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:45,089 of mine in who follow the education 999 00:42:50,660 --> 00:42:48,390 situation in Great Britain is that there 1000 00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:50,670 are Muslim students who are causing 1001 00:42:55,309 --> 00:42:53,609 problems in class who don't want to be 1002 00:42:57,709 --> 00:42:55,319 taught evolution they're pushing back 1003 00:43:00,739 --> 00:42:57,719 against the teachers interestingly 1004 00:43:04,219 --> 00:43:00,749 enough although obviously Darwin was 1005 00:43:08,319 --> 00:43:04,229 their guy right there's not a problem in 1006 00:43:10,729 --> 00:43:08,329 the United Kingdom with teachers or 1007 00:43:13,759 --> 00:43:10,739 citizenry in general who rejects 1008 00:43:15,620 --> 00:43:13,769 evolution that doesn't mean the teachers 1009 00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:15,630 really know enough about it to teach it 1010 00:43:21,410 --> 00:43:18,569 well and to feel confident that they can 1011 00:43:24,049 --> 00:43:21,420 answer some of the challenges that 1012 00:43:26,539 --> 00:43:24,059 Muslim students may be directing against 1013 00:43:28,749 --> 00:43:26,549 them so what I'm hearing and this is 1014 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:28,759 just anecdotal and I would not want to 1015 00:43:36,049 --> 00:43:33,690 you know place a much faith in it 1016 00:43:40,009 --> 00:43:36,059 without more actual data but what I'm 1017 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:40,019 hearing is that unfortunately the 1018 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:44,249 situation in Great Britain is that many 1019 00:43:48,199 --> 00:43:45,569 of the teachers are just sort of 1020 00:43:50,959 --> 00:43:48,209 skipping evolution if they have a large 1021 00:43:52,729 --> 00:43:50,969 group of or at least an active group of 1022 00:43:54,439 --> 00:43:52,739 Muslim students because they just don't 1023 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:54,449 want to put up with a hassle which is 1024 00:43:58,039 --> 00:43:56,729 exactly we understand that year this is 1025 00:44:00,410 --> 00:43:58,049 the problem we have in the United States 1026 00:44:02,660 --> 00:44:00,420 as well it's totally understandable and 1027 00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:02,670 the solution is fairly simple the full 1028 00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:05,190 solution is to make sure those teachers 1029 00:44:09,049 --> 00:44:07,140 know how to handle those kinds of 1030 00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:09,059 questions and make sure that those 1031 00:44:15,819 --> 00:44:12,180 teachers continue to teach good science 1032 00:44:18,289 --> 00:44:15,829 continue to teach evolution as a as a 1033 00:44:21,650 --> 00:44:18,299 non-controversial scientific explanation 1034 00:44:24,229 --> 00:44:21,660 look I'll look as good of a yet a naive 1035 00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:24,239 question here in that the theory of 1036 00:44:28,339 --> 00:44:26,160 evolution certainly proven but is this 1037 00:44:30,049 --> 00:44:28,349 bits of it that could be even added to 1038 00:44:31,759 --> 00:44:30,059 it to make it even more solid than is 1039 00:44:34,099 --> 00:44:31,769 already it was it such a done deal that 1040 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:34,109 you can't deny it at all I always like 1041 00:44:39,739 --> 00:44:37,410 to help people understand that the way 1042 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:39,749 to think about evolution is a sort of a 1043 00:44:44,490 --> 00:44:41,490 three-part 1044 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:44,500 explanation the core idea of evolution 1045 00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:47,530 of biological evolution of common 1046 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:49,750 ancestry living things of this this 1047 00:44:55,049 --> 00:44:52,530 branching and splitting Tree of Life a 1048 00:45:00,089 --> 00:44:55,059 genealogical relationship among all 1049 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:00,099 living things that is undeniable I mean 1050 00:45:04,289 --> 00:45:02,530 that is so well supported we're not 1051 00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:04,299 testing it anymore it would be 1052 00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:06,910 extraordinarily unusual if that were 1053 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:09,670 overthrown because it just explains so 1054 00:45:15,569 --> 00:45:12,730 much so the core idea of common ancestry 1055 00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:15,579 is here to stay but we also have the 1056 00:45:20,430 --> 00:45:17,470 pattern of evolution how did that 1057 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:20,440 genealogical relationship take place who 1058 00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:23,170 is related to home how closely what is 1059 00:45:27,420 --> 00:45:25,150 the Tree of Life really look at like 1060 00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:27,430 there's lots of unanswered questions in 1061 00:45:31,319 --> 00:45:29,440 that and that is where the real growth 1062 00:45:33,650 --> 00:45:31,329 and evolution is taking place there 1063 00:45:36,210 --> 00:45:33,660 really is no missing link is there no 1064 00:45:38,910 --> 00:45:36,220 but then the third component is the 1065 00:45:41,579 --> 00:45:38,920 processor mechanisms of evolution how 1066 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:41,589 does evolution take place not how does 1067 00:45:46,170 --> 00:45:44,170 this tree of life look but what are the 1068 00:45:48,089 --> 00:45:46,180 forces that bring about this branching 1069 00:45:50,190 --> 00:45:48,099 and splitting through time and there are 1070 00:45:54,299 --> 00:45:50,200 a lot of unanswered questions and that 1071 00:45:57,059 --> 00:45:54,309 as well so that is where gaps and 1072 00:45:59,190 --> 00:45:57,069 understanding if you will occur they 1073 00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,200 occur both in the pattern of evolution 1074 00:46:04,260 --> 00:46:01,359 as well as the process of evolution but 1075 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:04,270 the big idea of common ancestry nobody's 1076 00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:06,730 arguing about that within the world of 1077 00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:09,520 science so we can't call in aliens to 1078 00:46:13,799 --> 00:46:12,430 explain the Cambrian explosion well you 1079 00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:13,809 can but you're going to be waiting a 1080 00:46:17,579 --> 00:46:16,240 long time for them to show up and the 1081 00:46:19,410 --> 00:46:17,589 evidence is a bit fit on the ground is 1082 00:46:20,819 --> 00:46:19,420 it yes indeed actually why did 1083 00:46:22,530 --> 00:46:20,829 everything happen bang at once and was 1084 00:46:24,510 --> 00:46:22,540 just all building up a bit pop why did 1085 00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:24,520 that happen then you know the Cambrian 1086 00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:27,640 explosion is pretty misunderstood for 1087 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:31,119 one thing explosion is kind of a bad 1088 00:46:35,809 --> 00:46:33,010 term to use it's a term that's been 1089 00:46:38,370 --> 00:46:35,819 around really for decades but 1090 00:46:41,460 --> 00:46:38,380 paleontologists nowadays don't actually 1091 00:46:44,250 --> 00:46:41,470 think about it as something that takes 1092 00:46:46,530 --> 00:46:44,260 place in a very rapid period of time if 1093 00:46:47,890 --> 00:46:46,540 it's an explosion it's at a really slong 1094 00:46:51,549 --> 00:46:47,900 fuse okay 1095 00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:51,559 it's at least 30 million years relic a 1096 00:46:58,319 --> 00:46:53,660 lot can happen in 30 million years 1097 00:47:00,940 --> 00:46:58,329 exactly something 30 million years is 1098 00:47:04,839 --> 00:47:00,950 roughly the time that it took to get 1099 00:47:06,789 --> 00:47:04,849 from a land mammal to a whale okay so a 1100 00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:06,799 lot of stuff can take place in 30 1101 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:11,119 million years on a geological scale it 1102 00:47:17,049 --> 00:47:14,170 was relatively quick but certainly not a 1103 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:17,059 not a not an explosion and the way most 1104 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:19,490 people think of it and really what the 1105 00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:21,410 Cambrian why the Cambrian is so 1106 00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:24,559 fascinating to paleontologists is really 1107 00:47:30,460 --> 00:47:27,680 because some of the very basic body 1108 00:47:32,799 --> 00:47:30,470 plans of living things were laid down 1109 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:32,809 the difference between a mollusk 1110 00:47:41,410 --> 00:47:38,770 something like a clam and a and insect 1111 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:41,420 something that's got six legs or an 1112 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:43,250 arachnid something with eight legs those 1113 00:47:49,029 --> 00:47:46,130 that that these basic body plans were 1114 00:47:52,769 --> 00:47:49,039 laid down in the Cambrian but then 1115 00:47:55,390 --> 00:47:52,779 there's been a huge amount of 1116 00:47:59,170 --> 00:47:55,400 development within those plans I mean 1117 00:48:01,599 --> 00:47:59,180 you know the basic coordinate body plan 1118 00:48:05,559 --> 00:48:01,609 of two legs in front two legs and back 1119 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:05,569 and a a spinal column kind of between 1120 00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:07,970 them and I had at one end and an anus at 1121 00:48:15,460 --> 00:48:12,430 the other that basic body plan has 1122 00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:15,470 developed into the huge range of 1123 00:48:20,190 --> 00:48:18,049 reptiles birds mammals and amphibians 1124 00:48:22,269 --> 00:48:20,200 that we see in the among the land 1125 00:48:26,170 --> 00:48:22,279 vertebrates and of course the huge 1126 00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,180 radiant radiation of fish as well so all 1127 00:48:30,490 --> 00:48:28,880 of that happened after the Cambrian it's 1128 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:30,500 not like the Cambrian happened and all 1129 00:48:34,150 --> 00:48:31,970 of a sudden you got lions tigers and 1130 00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:34,160 bears that's not how it happen the 1131 00:48:37,930 --> 00:48:36,049 g-shot been great talking to you what's 1132 00:48:39,099 --> 00:48:37,940 your favorite result of evolution I got 1133 00:48:40,809 --> 00:48:39,109 to you know the platypus it have to be 1134 00:48:42,250 --> 00:48:40,819 pretty good that's pretty good why have 1135 00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:42,260 you got one that's a really a favorite 1136 00:48:51,490 --> 00:48:47,599 man that's done well oh boy hmm it keeps 1137 00:48:54,339 --> 00:48:51,500 changing I'm a physical anthropologist 1138 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:54,349 by training so of course I am fascinated 1139 00:49:00,100 --> 00:48:56,090 with human evolution 1140 00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:00,110 and I really think that that the 1141 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:07,580 transition from Homo erectus to modern 1142 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:12,410 humans is a fascinating period of human 1143 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:17,330 history and I'm watching that transition 1144 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:21,530 and really enjoying learning about the 1145 00:49:25,810 --> 00:49:23,210 new fossil that are being discovered 1146 00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:25,820 that will kind of help bridge that gap 1147 00:49:31,060 --> 00:49:28,640 so how do you feel about any 1148 00:49:33,370 --> 00:49:31,070 extrapolation into exobiology do you 1149 00:49:35,140 --> 00:49:33,380 think that on another planet you would 1150 00:49:36,820 --> 00:49:35,150 necessarily have to have a dominant 1151 00:49:40,060 --> 00:49:36,830 species be whatever they are like a 1152 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:40,070 human do things have to go that way they 1153 00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:41,690 didn't have to go that way on planet 1154 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:46,160 earth but I think that Richard Dawkins 1155 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:49,010 is absolutely correct when he says that 1156 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:52,850 if we find life on another planet we 1157 00:49:58,750 --> 00:49:56,810 will find that the if you will governing 1158 00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:58,760 mechanism is going to be natural 1159 00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:01,520 selection we may not find things with 1160 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:03,710 six appendages and eight appendages and 1161 00:50:07,540 --> 00:50:05,810 four appendages like we have here we may 1162 00:50:10,810 --> 00:50:07,550 not find things with appendages at all 1163 00:50:13,330 --> 00:50:10,820 we may find that it's not carbon-based 1164 00:50:16,690 --> 00:50:13,340 even we may find that there are other 1165 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:16,700 molecules that allow for the 1166 00:50:24,460 --> 00:50:21,610 multiplication of structure and and 1167 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:24,470 individuals but we will find natural 1168 00:50:29,590 --> 00:50:27,290 selection and because we understand 1169 00:50:32,140 --> 00:50:29,600 natural selection as a mechanism that 1170 00:50:35,860 --> 00:50:32,150 brings about this branching and 1171 00:50:38,770 --> 00:50:35,870 splitting process of evolutionary change 1172 00:50:40,990 --> 00:50:38,780 we will be able to understand life on 1173 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:41,000 other planets if we discover them okay 1174 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:42,290 thank you for coming to Australia and 1175 00:51:06,049 --> 00:50:43,610 hanging out with the cool kids that 1176 00:51:10,289 --> 00:51:08,400 astronomy cast it takes a fact space 1177 00:51:12,179 --> 00:51:10,299 journey through the cosmos as it offers 1178 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:12,189 listeners weekly discussions on 1179 00:51:17,789 --> 00:51:14,890 astronomical topics ranging from planets 1180 00:51:20,099 --> 00:51:17,799 to cosmology hosted by Fraser Cain of 1181 00:51:21,089 --> 00:51:20,109 Universe Today and myself dr. Pamela 1182 00:51:23,759 --> 00:51:21,099 gave southern illinois university 1183 00:51:25,650 --> 00:51:23,769 edwardsville this show brings the 1184 00:51:28,079 --> 00:51:25,660 questions of an avid astronomy lover 1185 00:51:30,179 --> 00:51:28,089 directly to an astronomer together 1186 00:51:31,709 --> 00:51:30,189 Fraser and I explore what is known and 1187 00:51:34,469 --> 00:51:31,719 being discovered about the universe 1188 00:51:36,539 --> 00:51:34,479 around us join us each week as we take a 1189 00:51:49,859 --> 00:51:36,549 fact space journey through the cosmos at 1190 00:51:51,809 --> 00:51:49,869 astronomy cast calm well as I mentioned 1191 00:51:54,029 --> 00:51:51,819 at the top of the show I'm visiting a 1192 00:51:56,099 --> 00:51:54,039 Melbourne Victoria at the moment at the 1193 00:51:58,709 --> 00:51:56,109 house of dr. Steve Roberts hello Steve 1194 00:52:00,239 --> 00:51:58,719 hello Richard it's good to be here now 1195 00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:00,249 we've known each other for many years 1196 00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:03,609 and you're you are of course Australian 1197 00:52:09,479 --> 00:52:07,569 skeptics UFO expert and the question is 1198 00:52:13,380 --> 00:52:09,489 how can you be an expert in something 1199 00:52:15,509 --> 00:52:13,390 which is unknown or probably not there I 1200 00:52:17,699 --> 00:52:15,519 mean when we think of UFOs most people 1201 00:52:20,429 --> 00:52:17,709 will think of alien spacecraft write 1202 00:52:22,199 --> 00:52:20,439 something identified yeah I know that's 1203 00:52:24,029 --> 00:52:22,209 what it means unidentified flying object 1204 00:52:26,729 --> 00:52:24,039 but in the popular imagination UFO 1205 00:52:28,559 --> 00:52:26,739 equals aliens coming to visit us and 1206 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:28,569 have a look yeah yeah it's moved on from 1207 00:52:32,909 --> 00:52:30,249 just something that's unidentified like 1208 00:52:35,069 --> 00:52:32,919 a blip on a radar screen to have a sort 1209 00:52:37,469 --> 00:52:35,079 of more definite form like a flying 1210 00:52:40,349 --> 00:52:37,479 saucer with people that well people with 1211 00:52:43,140 --> 00:52:40,359 things in it beings inside it have come 1212 00:52:47,489 --> 00:52:43,150 to visit earth or crash lands they drive 1213 00:52:49,019 --> 00:52:47,499 badly you think that they wouldn't know 1214 00:52:51,509 --> 00:52:49,029 how to control their spaceships better 1215 00:52:53,759 --> 00:52:51,519 than that now with me I have brought 1216 00:52:56,130 --> 00:52:53,769 folks I am looking at stacks and stacks 1217 00:52:58,349 --> 00:52:56,140 of UFO books which one given to another 1218 00:52:59,880 --> 00:52:58,359 friend of ours Martin Hadley from 1219 00:53:03,299 --> 00:52:59,890 another friend of his who was getting 1220 00:53:05,999 --> 00:53:03,309 rid of them I guess 60 kilos worth of 1221 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:06,009 UFO books spanning years and years and 1222 00:53:09,630 --> 00:53:08,650 years first when we pick up there's a 1223 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:09,640 book called let's how 1224 00:53:15,019 --> 00:53:12,130 they're friendly here's one the day 1225 00:53:18,359 --> 00:53:15,029 after roswell and we just go through 1226 00:53:22,259 --> 00:53:18,369 UFOs that's a great the alien encounters 1227 00:53:24,299 --> 00:53:22,269 there we go in customs forbidden Islands 1228 00:53:26,910 --> 00:53:24,309 forbidden science with a picture of a 1229 00:53:30,829 --> 00:53:26,920 pyramid on it making technologies to 1230 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:30,839 free energy the face on Mars that's a 1231 00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:34,650 book so that's something isn't it the 1232 00:53:40,730 --> 00:53:36,720 unexplained what else have we got here 1233 00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:40,740 for nobody's eyes only above top-secret 1234 00:53:45,539 --> 00:53:43,390 UFOs above the law well I imagine they 1235 00:53:47,099 --> 00:53:45,549 would be above the law and fold I know 1236 00:53:48,839 --> 00:53:47,109 many of these books and some are good 1237 00:53:50,519 --> 00:53:48,849 the above top secret one is actually one 1238 00:53:52,620 --> 00:53:50,529 of the better ones oh yeah for a more 1239 00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:52,630 coherent researcher who's actually got 1240 00:53:57,359 --> 00:53:54,910 his act together and is only slightly 1241 00:54:00,539 --> 00:53:57,369 tainted with the obsession that there 1242 00:54:02,190 --> 00:54:00,549 must be a conspiracy or foot now well it 1243 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:02,200 strikes me Steve as we look at all these 1244 00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:03,970 books and I don't have any go out of 50 1245 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:05,680 60 books here something like that over 1246 00:54:11,039 --> 00:54:09,130 probably so many books on the topic and 1247 00:54:12,750 --> 00:54:11,049 they go at these photographs and there's 1248 00:54:14,460 --> 00:54:12,760 accounts and there's this is one look 1249 00:54:15,930 --> 00:54:14,470 here we are pictures of aliens they look 1250 00:54:19,259 --> 00:54:15,940 like you know it looks like a praying 1251 00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:19,269 mantis star map that look menacing but 1252 00:54:25,079 --> 00:54:23,440 that they too first of all I guess one 1253 00:54:27,089 --> 00:54:25,089 of the points we can make is no matter 1254 00:54:30,690 --> 00:54:27,099 how many books there are on a subject 1255 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:30,700 like UFOs and here we have a huge huge 1256 00:54:35,220 --> 00:54:33,130 amount of books it doesn't therefore 1257 00:54:37,609 --> 00:54:35,230 equate to they must be here does it 1258 00:54:40,109 --> 00:54:37,619 while you have lots and lots of books 1259 00:54:41,970 --> 00:54:40,119 does actually mean is easy there we know 1260 00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:41,980 how many books are there about religion 1261 00:54:46,769 --> 00:54:44,710 and the Bible and all other religions 1262 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:46,779 years ago howdy books on that and 1263 00:54:51,299 --> 00:54:49,450 there's actually maybe nothing there but 1264 00:54:53,370 --> 00:54:51,309 yo peebs you see something they think of 1265 00:54:55,609 --> 00:54:53,380 something going on but when you track 1266 00:54:58,980 --> 00:54:55,619 the evidence down there isn't any oh 1267 00:55:00,690 --> 00:54:58,990 it's too vague but it was like sometimes 1268 00:55:03,269 --> 00:55:00,700 it's been interfered with or you can 1269 00:55:05,809 --> 00:55:03,279 make it look like that so after rd who 1270 00:55:08,490 --> 00:55:05,819 say up the absence of evidence is 1271 00:55:10,799 --> 00:55:08,500 actually evidence for conspiracy going 1272 00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:10,809 on there must be evidence because people 1273 00:55:14,249 --> 00:55:11,950 have seen there must be something 1274 00:55:17,130 --> 00:55:14,259 happening this is no ever somebody's 1275 00:55:19,230 --> 00:55:17,140 hiding it all alien encounters true life 1276 00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:19,240 stories of aliens UFOs another 1277 00:55:25,210 --> 00:55:21,359 extraterrestrial phenomena 1278 00:55:30,130 --> 00:55:25,220 whoo laws morning my own business yeah 1279 00:55:33,650 --> 00:55:30,140 and UFOs in the national security state 1280 00:55:35,420 --> 00:55:33,660 it's it's just staggering to me that so 1281 00:55:38,509 --> 00:55:35,430 many books can be written on something 1282 00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:38,519 and this is now 22 2015 this still 1283 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:40,079 hadn't arrived I mean there's still no 1284 00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:41,970 good evidence for them well when I say 1285 00:55:46,789 --> 00:55:44,460 there- extraterrestrials visiting birth 1286 00:55:48,589 --> 00:55:46,799 yeah there are no there was it's not so 1287 00:55:50,299 --> 00:55:48,599 there's a SETI program of course which 1288 00:55:52,849 --> 00:55:50,309 is yours it all that it might be radio 1289 00:55:54,259 --> 00:55:52,859 signals and because send hours and 80s 1290 00:55:56,769 --> 00:55:54,269 to send there's we could hope do you 1291 00:55:59,930 --> 00:55:56,779 pick them up that that's a plausible 1292 00:56:01,759 --> 00:55:59,940 proposition likely or does another 1293 00:56:04,279 --> 00:56:01,769 discussion but so with a peeler of 1294 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:04,289 actually landed father that's angel 1295 00:56:08,420 --> 00:56:06,450 flying saucer occupants might all the 1296 00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:08,430 wings on keepers this is from the night 1297 00:56:15,170 --> 00:56:12,720 you since the book lady see ya flying 1298 00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:15,180 sources here and now yeah Frankie 1299 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:17,400 demotto that these are ancient books yes 1300 00:56:21,650 --> 00:56:19,170 several things like literally these are 1301 00:56:24,019 --> 00:56:21,660 actually very old books UFO report on 1302 00:56:25,999 --> 00:56:24,029 they come from the days before the 1303 00:56:29,089 --> 00:56:26,009 crests canoe that one got in there 1304 00:56:31,089 --> 00:56:29,099 amazing I make first remember that these 1305 00:56:35,359 --> 00:56:31,099 come from the days before the conspiracy 1306 00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:35,369 notion of o's right UFOs what's what 1307 00:56:40,569 --> 00:56:37,200 what on earth is happening the coming 1308 00:56:44,329 --> 00:56:40,579 invasion coming in please look out what 1309 00:56:47,299 --> 00:56:44,339 we came they never came so yeah again 1310 00:56:49,279 --> 00:56:47,309 it's it's just don't you just get 1311 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:49,289 through all these boxes five piles near 1312 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:52,890 your meter high yeah and so you so much 1313 00:56:57,229 --> 00:56:55,170 books way I thought just a few books and 1314 00:56:58,849 --> 00:56:57,239 it's sticky when you probably came down 1315 00:57:01,400 --> 00:56:58,859 here but you had to get extra baggage on 1316 00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:01,410 the aircraft so baggages that all the 1317 00:57:05,329 --> 00:57:03,359 aircraft fluid a sort of semi circle it 1318 00:57:08,299 --> 00:57:05,339 took off it was like UFO when it took 1319 00:57:10,910 --> 00:57:08,309 off to the Bermuda Triangle yeah oh 1320 00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:10,920 that's been investigated by Papa 1321 00:57:14,450 --> 00:57:13,200 scientists and on to death I guess that 1322 00:57:17,989 --> 00:57:14,460 we could think there are lots of books 1323 00:57:19,609 --> 00:57:17,999 on things like Bigfoot and loch ness 1324 00:57:21,529 --> 00:57:19,619 monster there must be thousands of books 1325 00:57:23,150 --> 00:57:21,539 written on these things again gets to 1326 00:57:24,529 --> 00:57:23,160 the point no matter how many books there 1327 00:57:26,109 --> 00:57:24,539 are with people saying they're here now 1328 00:57:29,089 --> 00:57:26,119 and it's all a'kin spirit is 1329 00:57:31,970 --> 00:57:29,099 confirmation of make at least fri become 1330 00:57:33,130 --> 00:57:31,980 what's the first of those community in 1331 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:33,140 union yeah 1332 00:57:37,450 --> 00:57:35,450 the hard evidence hommel evidence here 1333 00:57:39,819 --> 00:57:37,460 it's hard we open up this book and there 1334 00:57:41,559 --> 00:57:39,829 are photographs of fuzzy things and 1335 00:57:43,569 --> 00:57:41,569 clouds nuclear hollow east forums 1336 00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:43,579 admitted he made it all up fuzzy and 1337 00:57:46,660 --> 00:57:45,440 reminds me of the goodies that episode 1338 00:57:48,279 --> 00:57:46,670 were they weren't looking for the Loch 1339 00:57:50,319 --> 00:57:48,289 Ness monster and they were sold a 1340 00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:50,329 special photograph for taking fuzzy out 1341 00:57:54,430 --> 00:57:52,640 of photo group ones mobile phone is 1342 00:57:56,230 --> 00:57:54,440 latent phenomenon it's got the advantage 1343 00:57:57,789 --> 00:57:56,240 that a lot miss monster must be in Loch 1344 00:57:59,109 --> 00:57:57,799 Ness we wouldn't be the Loch Ness 1345 00:58:01,599 --> 00:57:59,119 monster with a lot somewhere else 1346 00:58:03,309 --> 00:58:01,609 monster so ever do is go and troll 1347 00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:03,319 rottnest which unfortunately is about 1348 00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:07,490 two kilometers deep but some as long as 1349 00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:09,680 I said you know is huge in a way it's 1350 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:11,890 limited compared to outer space it's a 1351 00:58:17,349 --> 00:58:14,690 much more limited phenomenon to look for 1352 00:58:21,370 --> 00:58:17,359 the light years Gary kinder all this one 1353 00:58:23,319 --> 00:58:21,380 is ha this is a you know this is the 1354 00:58:26,109 --> 00:58:23,329 ezine with billy meier and see this is 1355 00:58:28,980 --> 00:58:26,119 them make sure the button hang it is so 1356 00:58:32,019 --> 00:58:28,990 bad ya know it's about billy meier 1357 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:32,029 indo-chinese so hang in bottles from 1358 00:58:35,349 --> 00:58:33,650 trees and photographing them well this 1359 00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:35,359 one's interesting in search of strange 1360 00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:38,089 phenomena forward by linen nguoi yeah 1361 00:58:43,319 --> 00:58:40,160 linda my go to sell feet tangled up with 1362 00:58:45,940 --> 00:58:43,329 is gideon he's hosting it yes yeah yeah 1363 00:58:48,039 --> 00:58:45,950 the boys weird stuff because obviously 1364 00:58:49,569 --> 00:58:48,049 mr. Spock is a weird carrot I used to 1365 00:58:51,370 --> 00:58:49,579 like in search of I've learned the more 1366 00:58:53,890 --> 00:58:51,380 it was great I've got a lot of them in 1367 00:58:56,980 --> 00:58:53,900 my file access it on now with William 1368 00:59:00,940 --> 00:58:56,990 Shatner do you believe it we or wheel 1369 00:59:02,769 --> 00:59:00,950 you know what yes yes finest that is a 1370 00:59:04,509 --> 00:59:02,779 really ancient book for my sources 1371 00:59:07,569 --> 00:59:04,519 serious because serious spin the phrase 1372 00:59:11,289 --> 00:59:07,579 Illinois 52 that one good heavens eighty 1373 00:59:13,420 --> 00:59:11,299 cents there you go it just looked like 1374 00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:13,430 we're not even scratching the surface of 1375 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:15,200 how many books here the mysteries of 1376 00:59:20,019 --> 00:59:17,450 Atlantis that's a mystery open skies 1377 00:59:22,569 --> 00:59:20,029 closed minds of this is not a bad one 1378 00:59:26,140 --> 00:59:22,579 actually come again by a pretty decent 1379 00:59:29,259 --> 00:59:26,150 researcher Nick Pope who's got a better 1380 00:59:31,870 --> 00:59:29,269 one for good the damn charles fort yeah 1381 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:31,880 charles fort like the 14 times last full 1382 00:59:36,190 --> 00:59:34,130 of memorable but there's one book 1383 00:59:39,490 --> 00:59:36,200 amongst them stay which you found quite 1384 00:59:42,549 --> 00:59:39,500 early one will not release of the only 1385 00:59:44,810 --> 00:59:42,559 money 84 pages and it's about eight 1386 00:59:50,090 --> 00:59:44,820 millimeters thick 1387 00:59:52,490 --> 00:59:50,100 holy upside down 1957 $10 it's worth ten 1388 00:59:55,250 --> 00:59:52,500 dollars there's more facts in this 84 1389 00:59:58,730 --> 00:59:55,260 page book that in the whole five we type 1390 01:00:01,010 --> 00:59:58,740 I'll together and it's the nature of the 1391 01:00:03,500 --> 01:00:01,020 universe by Fred Hoyle how about that 1392 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:03,510 and Biddy it's not autograph in 84 pages 1393 01:00:09,830 --> 01:00:07,410 you manage to describe the universe and 1394 01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:09,840 there's probably no no mention of UFOs 1395 01:00:15,770 --> 01:00:12,720 yes good old Fred Hoyle oh I've just 1396 01:00:18,260 --> 01:00:15,780 dropped him oh no oh no miss sorry fair 1397 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:18,270 cousin good old that book used to be 1398 01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:21,930 worth a fortune was not a slightly fox 1399 01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:23,760 it's worth even more yeah good old Fred 1400 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:25,920 Hoyle he was the Maverick of astronomers 1401 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:28,050 but he was quite right in his thinking 1402 01:00:32,990 --> 01:00:31,050 but he am more or less he made it he 1403 01:00:35,660 --> 01:00:33,000 espouse a steady-state theory yes yes 1404 01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:35,670 closable at the time EMS went the other 1405 01:00:39,230 --> 01:00:37,110 way because a good theory until the 1406 01:00:40,910 --> 01:00:39,240 evidence came in and he had a good 1407 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:40,920 worldview and is summarized it all this 1408 01:00:45,380 --> 01:00:43,170 very neat little book which will put on 1409 01:00:47,420 --> 01:00:45,390 the top of the piles worth more than the 1410 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:47,430 you know the five meters of the five 1411 01:00:52,850 --> 01:00:49,770 minutes it gets bigger with every 1412 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:52,860 retelling here and for those of you who 1413 01:00:57,650 --> 01:00:54,930 follow the skeptic zone on Facebook the 1414 01:00:59,090 --> 01:00:57,660 skeptics own Facebook page you would 1415 01:01:01,070 --> 01:00:59,100 have seen some of these books in the 1416 01:01:03,590 --> 01:01:01,080 little video teaser we put up for this 1417 01:01:06,530 --> 01:01:03,600 week's episode anyway Steve happy 1418 01:01:08,450 --> 01:01:06,540 reading you're going to be need to be on 1419 01:01:09,890 --> 01:01:08,460 EU echo to read all these books I think 1420 01:01:11,830 --> 01:01:09,900 so yeah that's I get a duct and I'll 1421 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:11,840 have time time to leave some books and 1422 01:01:27,700 --> 01:01:15,210 for everybody else well keep watching 1423 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:32,240 on Maynard com Donna you last saturday 1424 01:01:35,900 --> 01:01:34,410 night Maynard went on a binge he got 1425 01:01:38,030 --> 01:01:35,910 home at four o'clock in the morning off 1426 01:01:44,100 --> 01:01:38,040 they intoxicated well it's not unusual 1427 01:01:44,110 --> 01:01:49,609 Tim Ferguson and my god 1428 01:01:54,210 --> 01:01:51,620 Oh 1429 01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:54,220 and upon the 20 1430 01:01:58,650 --> 01:01:56,890 you won't see that one coming he listens 1431 01:02:00,120 --> 01:01:58,660 at Planet Maynard podcast of course you 1432 01:02:01,530 --> 01:02:00,130 can subscribe to planet main out and get 1433 01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:01,540 all the shows automatically to you 1434 01:02:14,670 --> 01:02:04,240 through itunes stitcher tune in all of 1435 01:02:16,260 --> 01:02:14,680 those people cling to your radio what do 1436 01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:16,270 you think of kinesiology that's where 1437 01:02:19,470 --> 01:02:18,400 they they press your arm up and down to 1438 01:02:23,490 --> 01:02:19,480 figure out what's wrong with your 1439 01:02:26,310 --> 01:02:23,500 pancreas and now kinesiology unlike any 1440 01:02:28,890 --> 01:02:26,320 of the other modern natural therapies 1441 01:02:32,849 --> 01:02:28,900 deserves to be given just that extra 1442 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:32,859 little bit of scorn that the others 1443 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:35,170 don't get I know homeopathy really cops 1444 01:02:43,020 --> 01:02:38,890 it because it is and that Reiki is 1445 01:02:46,650 --> 01:02:43,030 totaled but the kinesiology is wicked 1446 01:02:49,859 --> 01:02:46,660 because it's not just it that the 1447 01:02:52,980 --> 01:02:49,869 there's no is it just pays really well 1448 01:02:57,380 --> 01:02:52,990 so for kinesiology you might as well ask 1449 01:03:00,480 --> 01:02:57,390 your cat how to fix your back so go to a 1450 01:03:03,690 --> 01:03:00,490 doctor you people and how is kittler is 1451 01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:03,700 kit look at MD yet oh yeah it's an MD 1452 01:03:08,370 --> 01:03:06,400 and a world leader he's writing a new 1453 01:03:13,450 --> 01:03:08,380 book I believe he's been doing Reiki by 1454 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:17,420 well since kittler and it's just as 1455 01:03:30,969 --> 01:03:21,330 effective o bondhu on may not condone 1456 01:03:35,089 --> 01:03:33,439 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1457 01:03:37,539 --> 01:03:35,099 zone and my goodness me that cheesecake 1458 01:03:39,979 --> 01:03:37,549 was pretty nice and i think there's 1459 01:03:42,949 --> 01:03:39,989 there's still some more leftover in the 1460 01:03:44,719 --> 01:03:42,959 fridge mmm classic Chiefs cake can get 1461 01:03:47,870 --> 01:03:44,729 but or chocolate cheesecakes quite good 1462 01:03:49,549 --> 01:03:47,880 too but normal cheesecake so sorry I'm 1463 01:03:53,329 --> 01:03:49,559 seems to be going off in some sort of 1464 01:03:56,569 --> 01:03:53,339 tangent here thank you dr. Steve Roberts 1465 01:03:58,459 --> 01:03:56,579 and his wife Barbara for throwing such a 1466 01:03:59,630 --> 01:03:58,469 wonderful party lots of skeptics were 1467 01:04:02,059 --> 01:03:59,640 here the other night we all had a really 1468 01:04:05,059 --> 01:04:02,069 great time and lots of other friends as 1469 01:04:08,269 --> 01:04:05,069 well and wasn't that interesting to hear 1470 01:04:11,959 --> 01:04:08,279 earlier on in the show the the snippets 1471 01:04:14,660 --> 01:04:11,969 from the Senate hearing and maybe you'll 1472 01:04:17,949 --> 01:04:14,670 get a better understanding of the the 1473 01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:17,959 antics of those wacky people at the 1474 01:04:22,339 --> 01:04:20,400 anti-vaccination the broad 1475 01:04:24,529 --> 01:04:22,349 anti-vaccination groups and of course 1476 01:04:26,029 --> 01:04:24,539 thank you to main artists again a 1477 01:04:27,859 --> 01:04:26,039 wonderful interview wonderful series 1478 01:04:29,719 --> 01:04:27,869 going to use particularly with dr. 1479 01:04:31,819 --> 01:04:29,729 Eugenie Scott thank you to the people 1480 01:04:33,529 --> 01:04:31,829 who have been buying pendants and 1481 01:04:35,509 --> 01:04:33,539 earrings and things from mr. Katz 1482 01:04:38,329 --> 01:04:35,519 origami jewelry because that money does 1483 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:38,339 go to help the skeptic zone and I I hope 1484 01:04:42,439 --> 01:04:40,410 you enjoy wearing that around or giving 1485 01:04:45,769 --> 01:04:42,449 it this Christmas presents or whatever 1486 01:04:48,169 --> 01:04:45,779 the case may be anyway for this week 1487 01:04:51,019 --> 01:04:48,179 this is Richard Saunders full of 1488 01:04:57,620 --> 01:04:51,029 cheesecake signing off from Melbourne 1489 01:05:00,140 --> 01:04:57,630 Australia you've been listening to the 1490 01:05:03,979 --> 01:05:00,150 skeptic zone podcast visit our website 1491 01:05:07,309 --> 01:05:03,989 at wwc a petting zoo TV for contacts and 1492 01:05:10,429 --> 01:05:07,319 archive of all episodes since 2008 and 1493 01:05:12,469 --> 01:05:10,439 our online store please support the 1494 01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:12,479 skeptic zone by following us on twitter 1495 01:05:19,339 --> 01:05:15,839 at skeptic zone liking us on facebook 1496 01:05:20,839 --> 01:05:19,349 and leaving a review on iTunes you can 1497 01:05:24,679 --> 01:05:20,849 also show your support by subscribing 1498 01:05:27,739 --> 01:05:24,689 via paypal for as little as 99 cents a 1499 01:05:29,359 --> 01:05:27,749 week the skeptic zone is an independent 1500 01:05:31,789 --> 01:05:29,369 production the views and opinions 1501 01:05:33,890 --> 01:05:31,799 expressed on the skeptic zone and not